Episode 32, Nov 24, 2021

Become a Confident Leader with Dr. Karyn Gordon

Dr. Karyn Gordon has rightly said, “Great leaders drive communication, performance, and engagement.”

But how can you become a great leader at your nonprofit organization?

In this episode, Bob DiMeo and Devon Francis are joined by Dr. Karyn Gordon to answer this question. Dr. Karyn is the CEO of DK Leadership, a leadership and relationship expert, and a sought-after media personality. They reveal the skills required to become a confident leader and lead your nonprofit to success.

You will learn:

  • The importance of finding your purpose –– both for organizations and individuals
  • The three types of leaders: insecure, arrogant, and confident
  • Effective conflict resolution tips for investment committees
  • How to improve your organization’s team dynamics by mastering five EQ skills
  • And more!

Tune in to learn how to become a confident nonprofit leader!

Full Podcast Transcript

[00:00:00] Welcome to Non-profit Investment Stewards with Bob DiMeo and Devon Francis from Fiducient Advisors. Bob and Devon are passionate about helping nonprofit organizations prosper. Whether you oversee endowment, foundation or retirement plan investments, this podcast exists to help stewards improve performance, reduce costs and discover strategies that enable your charitable organization to prosper and advance its mission.

[00:00:26] Now onto the show. Hello, and welcome back to the Nonprofit Investment Stewards podcast. I'm Bob DiMeo, great as always to be joined by Devon Francis. On today's episode, we have a dynamic guest who advises, coaches, and works with many organizations, including a number of nonprofits. I'm going to say right up front that this is not going to be an investment-centric episode.

[00:00:51] But it is chock full of super useful insights on how investment committees and other nonprofit leaders can be more [00:01:00] effective. I'm eager to jump into the topic, but before that, Devon, how are you doing? I'm perfect, Bob. I am so excited for our guest today. We are changing it up, as you said, a pretty unusual topic for us.

[00:01:11] So today we are joined by Dr. Karyn Gordon. She is a leadership and relationship expert. She's the CEO and co-founder of DK leadership, which is a global leadership coaching company whose purpose is developing great leaders. Dr. Karyn's unique ability is simplifying research in both a passionate and a practical way.

[00:01:32] She's spoken to more than half a million people across 17 countries, including nonprofit organizations, Fortune 500 companies, family businesses, entrepreneurs, professional associations, and lots of others. Dr. Karyn is a sought-after media personality and contributor. Having worked with Good Morning America, Forbes, the New York Times and more.

[00:01:53] And she has also authored several books, including a very recent release with a lot of buzz. So [00:02:00] we are so honored and fortunate that she has joined us today. And Dr. Karyn, I'd love to welcome you to the show. I’m excited. I feel like we have so much to cover in terms of leadership and non-profits. Oh, it's terrific. Dr. Karyn.

[00:02:12] We are just thrilled to have you on this show. And we heard, Devon mentioned purpose. Let's start with purpose. For anyone who reads your books or your research, it just becomes very clear that you are committed to developing great leaders and really helping organizations in their engagement, their performance, their culture.

[00:02:34] Can you talk about what drives that purpose and passionate in you? Is everything. I’m a big Simon Sinek fan, the power of why. And just really, if we understand the why, everything else comes out of that. Our purpose, both professionally and personally, is really the energy and fuel.

[00:02:49] And in my upcoming book, The Three Chairs: How Great Leaders Drive Communication, Performance and Engagement, one of the things I talk about is what I call the six P's of engagement. And if you actually really study organizations, whether or not [00:03:00] they're nonprofit or profit, doesn't really make any difference.

[00:03:02] There are six kinds of variables that really drive engagement within organizations. And these six pieces, I call it, and it's all based on research. The first one is actually purpose. So, if organizations can really harness what exactly is our purpose and they communicate that, it is like literally emotional energy that gets injected within a culture and it, and you can apply that both to an organization.

[00:03:25] You can also apply to teams. And you can actually apply it to individuals. So, my purpose, back to your question, Bob, was my purpose, when I, certainly when I wrote the book The Three Chairs, was to really help people understand that there are three different mindsets that we all have, all different types of leaders, arrogant, insecure, and the confident leader.

[00:03:46] And if we can kind of really understand the confident leader, and that purpose around helping other people lifting other people up, it literally energizes and engages those around us. So great leadership really does start [00:04:00] with self-leadership and then you can actually inspire those around you.

[00:04:02] But for me, my purpose really came to inspire great leaders, both at home and in organizations. And also, my purpose, I talk about this in the book in the very first chapter, my own why, a sense of purpose, came out of being diagnosed with the learning disability when I was in grade eight and told by clinical psychologists that I'd be essentially lucky to finish high school.

[00:04:23] And so my leadership journey started at 13 years old. And learning how to deal with that kind of negativity and disability, and then learning how to ask for help, learning how to put my focus on things that I could control, learning how to set realistic goals. And so, my own leadership journey started when I was 13.

[00:04:42] I talk about that in the book. And then I kind of went through my own kind of journey. I think leadership is an ongoing journey. And then when I started working with organizations and families realizing that this is something that I could really teach to both organizations as well as individuals.

[00:04:56] Wow. What a success story you have, certainly. [00:05:00] Yeah, I know a lot of, yeah, a lot of people don't know that part of it, but now that's why I've found that even why I wrote the book. You know, again, Bob's question is a great one. Like the purpose drives everything. And so, that's why, in my own book, I share that story because I, that, that difficulty taught me so much.

[00:05:18] And I thought if I can learn from it and share those leadership lessons, both to young people, but also to business owners, then let's do it. And so that's where my, that was certainly part of the drive with when I, you know, in terms of my career choice, studying psychology, eventually doing a doctorate to marriage and family.

[00:05:34] And so that was part of my own kind of journey and story, but it's been incredibly interesting and helpful to just see of how that kind of really related and connected with a lot of people. Yeah, absolutely. So inspiring. So, Dr. Karyn, one of the things that you mentioned is the three types of leaders: arrogant, insecure, and confident.

[00:05:54] Can you dive into that in a bit more detail? Sure. So, I'm a visual learner. That was actually part of [00:06:00] my disability is actually it's the way that my auditory processing. And so, my deficit was in terms of how I actually understood content from an auditory perspective. But the benefit of it is that I'm off the charts visual, which actually has really helped me in terms of actually teaching.

[00:06:14] So since this is an auditory and everybody's listening right now, I want for all of us who are visual learners, I want you to visualize three chairs. And the cover of the book is essentially these three chairs. If you go to Amazon to get your copy, you'll actually see it. It's very clear. There's three chairs.

[00:06:27] And so, if you look at these three chairs, the left chair is what I call the insecure leader. The right chair, the far right chair, is what I call the arrogant leader. And the middle chair, which is the red chair on the cover of the book, is what I call the confident leader. And so, when I back up, so I've been practicing for 25 years.

[00:06:45] The first 10 years of my work, I focused on families. And then I was encouraged by organizations, nonprofit and profit, to transfer the knowledge I had of millennials into the workforce. So that's how I ended up shifting my focus to organizations 15 years ago. And so, this concept [00:07:00] of these three chairs actually started 24 years ago when I was actually working with young people and teenagers and millennials, and actually realized that there was a lot of them that really struggle with security.

[00:07:08] And so I started going through all the research on the data around the power of attitude and mindset and confidence that if we have a healthy mindset, it actually literally changes and drives all of our behaviors. So back to the visual, everybody. So, visualize these three chairs in front of you. So, on the left chair, you've got your insecure person.

[00:07:27] The right chair, you've got your arrogant person. And the middle chair, you've got your confident person or your confident leader. Based on research. And all I did, I don't like doing research, I love collecting research and simplifying it and see patterns in research. That's what I'm really good at. And so that's really what this book is.

[00:07:44] It's compiling the research in a really simple way. So, once I explained these three attitudes, then you can actually start predicting with fairly educated guesses on how people actually make decisions, whether or not they're 15 or 50, whether or [00:08:00] not they're a teenager or the CEO of a nonprofit, it doesn't make any difference.

[00:08:03] You can actually predict with fairly good certainty of how they make decisions. So that left chair, that insecure leader, think about how that would affect them on things like communication or goal-setting or risk-taking, or the arrogant leader in terms of how that actually affects their behavior. And so, what I do is I explain these three attitudes and then I try to get people to think of which chair they are sitting in, and then how does it actually impact their overall leadership and how they actually drive their teams?

[00:08:29] Wow, Dr. Karyn, that just seems to have application in so many areas and I'm thinking, we'll drill down a lot more on nonprofits specifically and some of the investment committees and so on. But as you're describing the three profiles, I'm thinking of our typical listener and the clients that Devon and myself and our colleagues at Fiducient are working with.

[00:08:49] And sometimes, you've got the president or CEO or executive director of a nonprofit working alongside another leader, director of finance, let's say, [00:09:00] or what gets really interesting are these investment committees. We're sure you might have some staff, perhaps the CFO of the nonprofit, but then you have many talented caring volunteers.

[00:09:12] And some are in it for the right reason and some are in it with a little bit of grandstanding, or, you know, maybe with a different motive. So, I just wonder when we talk about whether it's an investment committee or any sort of committee structure, if you have any insights on the interplay here. Yeah, no, it's a great question.

[00:09:29] I always find that, I always like to know, like when I, when I speak and teach about the three chairs and these three attitudes of leaders, I always like to explain them and then pause and let people process and let that sit with them and then go deeper specifically in how then this applies to them.

[00:09:46] So, thank you. That's a perfect question, Bob, because first of all, do the three attitudes make sense? So, can everybody, certainly Devon and Bob, for you, does it make sense in terms of the three attitudes? So, the left chair is that insecure leader. They're the [00:10:00] person that kind of puts himself down.

[00:10:01] They're pretty tough on themselves. They can either set really high goals or actually no goals at all. The right leader is that arrogant leader. They're cocky, they're arrogant. They're a little full of themselves. Well, you know, tell people where to go and very, you know, I'm not as open for feedback.

[00:10:13] And you've got the middle chair leader, the confident leader that is, you know, strives for excellence, not perfection. They've got a healthy mindset. They know a lot, but they also know they don't know everything. So, they have a sense of humility and that's actually one of the most critical pieces of that middle chair, that confident leader.

[00:10:29] They’re open to feedback. They're open to knowing what they actually don't know. And so, because of that, people love to work with them. They really attract followers, people, you know, all levels of leaders. So, let me just pause there for a second. Does that make sense?

[00:10:44] Can you kind of understand right now in terms of three different attitudes? We talk a lot about chairs of investment committees and just as you're describing the three, and Devon and I have done episodes on how investment committees can be more effective and so on. And one is to have a [00:11:00] really terrific or qualified chair. And that confident profile can be so much more productive and constructive than the other two. Excellent.

[00:11:11] It's actually such a great, it's such a great metaphor when you're actually talking about that, because I literally have taught this concept to organizations globally. And when a lot of the top leaders, senior leaders and CEOs, I was speaking in Wisconsin not before COVID around us and actually had a chance to actually visually show the organization these chairs, and the CEO came up to me afterwards.

[00:11:30] He said, Karyn, he goes, I'm listening to you. And I'm seeing as he goes, I'm literally having goose pimples because I realize as a leader, we want to be a middle chair company. We want to hire people in the middle chair. We want to make sure that we're promoting people in the middle chair. We want to, everything is going to be driven, that our DNA, our cultural DNA is going to be about that middle chair.

[00:11:47] So once, yes, once people actually understand it, it changes everything. So back to your question, Bob, around the interplay. So kind of step one is understanding these three different attitudes. And I get people [00:12:00] to think to themselves, okay, which chair do they see themselves sitting in the majority of the time?

[00:12:04] So none of us sit in one chair a hundred percent of the time. We would sit in maybe 80% of the time in maybe one chair, 20% another time. And so, we're all moving around from the chairs, but which chair would people see themselves sitting in the majority of the time? And then the second part is how does it impact their life in a very, in a day-to-day way?

[00:12:20] So your question about committees, I think is a great one. So, you know, I've been recently working with teams in every sector, a lot of insurance, actually, a lot of nonprofits, I'd say about 40% of our work is working with nonprofits. And holding our own team and committees is fascinating. So let me just test Devon and Bob for a second.

[00:12:37] So let's say, I am working with the team and, or sorry, a committee, a committee, and somebody, and, we’ll not see that whether or not they're 40 or 50 years old. If there's a conflict within that committee, I want you to logically think about this. How do you think the person on the left chair is now going to deal with that conflict?

[00:12:56] What's your guess, Devon? Well, I would say I'm probably a [00:13:00] left-chair person. Really? I know you said that you don't sit in one chair all the time. So sometimes, I'm in the middle chair, but sometimes I'm a left chair and I actually really dislike conflict. I avoid it like the plague. I think the left chair insecure leader would probably just cower and wait for the, uh, the conflict to pass by.

[00:13:22] Yes, Devon, you know what? You haven't even read the book and you already understand the logic to this. Yes, yes, yes, exactly. And that's what happens. So based on research insights, and this is all the data that I was able to pull together and start seeing the pattern. So, what we often see in conflict, this is just a really practical application of this material, is if I'm dealing with a committee, if I've got somebody in the left chair. So let's say, Devon, you and I are on that committee.

[00:13:46] And let’s say, you say you've done something that really has offended me. If I'm in that left chair, I will, generally speaking, avoid you. I will avoid you. I want to avoid the conflict at all costs. I will not talk to you because I don't have the confidence to do it. Or I won't talk to [00:14:00] you, I'm going to go talk to Bob.

[00:14:01] Bob, you wouldn't believe with what Devon did. And now what I've done is I've created a triangle. Triangles is, so just visualize that for a second. So I'm not talking to Devon, I'm now talking to Bob about Devon. And Devon doesn't even know that I'm even upset with her. So that triangle happens all the time in teams and committees, and they are toxic because conflict doesn't get resolved.

[00:14:23] Now it's frozen. And now, I'm involving other people that have actually nothing to do with it. So now, so the person in the right chair, Bob, let's see of how well you know this content. How do you think the person in the right chair is going to handle the conflict in that committee? So, I think the person in the right chair, if I'm sort of envisioning the, uh, the situation, sometimes, committees will have just one or two members that are sort of aggressive or arrogant.

[00:14:50] And they’ll domineer the discussion. And then you can end up with investment decisions and other decisions that really don't represent the [00:15:00] group. They represent the loudest, most aggressive person. Bob, Devon and Bob, you're getting A pluses on this assignment and you didn't even know I was gonna be quizzing you, but yes, you're absolutely right.

[00:15:09] So the right chair leader, they tend to, their sense of arrogance, they're not open to other ideas. There are, a lot of times, they want to voice their opinion, but they're not open. So, they're really, it's really hard to deal with conflict with them because everything is everybody else's fault. So, they are less likely to take ownership, less likely to apologize. Bob, if you and I were, you know, in that kind of dynamic.

[00:15:30] And if I'm in that right chair, and you, and if I have a conflict with you, I'll just tell you where to go. Like, I don't really care how you feel at the end of the conversation. So, there's this aggressiveness that will actually happen. But let's think about what about if I'm in the middle chair? So, let's say there is a conflict, and if I'm in that middle chair, I will respond very differently if there's a conflict.

[00:15:48] I will assert myself. I will voice my opinion. But I'm also going to listen to it, hear what other people say. And I'm also going to be focused on problem solving. [00:16:00] And I think this is a really, really big piece of that middle-chair mindset, that middle-chair leader, is that they're focused on solving problems as fast as possible.

[00:16:08] They don't get hung up in the drama. They don't get hung up in who's right, who's wrong. They want to come and address the issue and really lean into it. I'm a big fan of Patrick Lencioni's work. The Five Dysfunctions of a Team is one of my favorite books. And I just love this quote that he says that great leaders in all types of organizations, they don't fear conflict.

[00:16:27] They lean into it. And this applies to both families, but also organizations, that conflict is not to be feared. That middle chair leader realizes that conflict will happen in a team, in a committee, in a family. So, the sooner we can kind of address that problem, lean into it, and try to get people actually talking, actually, the better.

[00:16:46] And so that's just one example. There's like, in the book, I talk about tons of different examples of how it affects decision-making, self-discipline, setting boundaries, wellness, retention, engagement, like the application of this chair is literally overwhelming. [00:17:00] That's why people just love it so much, but once they can understand those three mindsets, it can start playing out.

[00:17:05] Okay. So how does this affect us as a leader? How does this affect us at work and actually at home? And then of course, what do we need to do to lean in and all become great leaders sitting in the middle chair? Well, Dr. Karyn, we're learning a lot about each other here today, and I'm also going to affirm, we're big fans of Lencioni as well.

[00:17:23] And we actually engaged his organization. This is probably eight years ago, where we created our hiring guide posts. So, you know, you never bat 100%, but I will say our talent has never been stronger and better top to bottom. And we develop these guideposts, which are, hey, does this candidate check their ego?

[00:17:44] Are they accountable and are they thoughtfully driven? And again, you don't bat 100%, but having that framework has helped immensely. Absolutely. And you know, his whole issue around, again, back to The Ideal Team Player, it's another one of my favorite books, and just the idea about accountability and going back [00:18:00] to that communication, again, that middle chair leader, they will hold people accountable.

[00:18:04] A lot of people in the left chair, because of the fear of conflict, they won't. They'll try to skirt around it. They will try to not address it. And so, both as an individual, you know, as a leader, as a, you know, regardless of role, I really think of leadership as, um, it's more in the mindset, less about title.

[00:18:21] I think anybody can have a title, but not everybody's a great leader. And so, accountability is a huge piece to the puzzle because the leader that sits in the middle chair, they know those standards and because they're not afraid of conflict, they lean into it, they will hold people accountable where a lot of people will not.

[00:18:37] And that's, I see that over and over again in team dynamics and committees that, I would actually say that's probably one of the biggest problems or dysfunctions in teams is a lack of accountability. And so, you have to have strong leaders who know communication skills to be able to, uh, to really drive that forward.

[00:18:59] Absolutely. [00:19:00] This conversation is so fascinating. One of the things that I wanted to talk about, which I think relates directly to what we've been discussing, is the five leadership EQ skills. So those skills are at the core of your message. First of all, can you talk a little bit broadly about the concept of EQ and then also, can you dive into those five leadership EQ skills?

[00:19:23] Absolutely. So again, based on the research, when I started studying about these different mindsets and understanding that really everything falls into these three chairs, which I just found so amazing and yet simple. And I think we're all looking for simple. Simple, but powerful, right? So that's what the three chairs are.

[00:19:41] So then I started diving more into what exactly makes up that great leader. So, we know that the middle cheerleader is a confident leader and I talked a little bit about, you know, how they deal with conflict, you know, and how they hold people accountable.

[00:19:55] But drilling it down even further, I identify that it really came down to, kind of pouring over the research, it [00:20:00] really came down to their emotional intelligence. If I was just to boil it all down, it came down to their specific, what I call the leadership EQ skills. And the challenge with EQ, and I see this over and over again when I speak at different organizations.

[00:20:11] Most people have heard of it. I was speaking in Chicago, couple of years ago, Bob, that's your city. And it was interesting. It was a business organization. I asked, there's about 300 people, this is pre COVID. I said, how many people know, how many people know have heard of EQ?

[00:20:29] Everybody's hand goes up. How many people can tell me what it is? I had five hands go up. How many people can tell me how to change it? Nobody's hand goes up. And that's where there's a disconnect. So, most of us, in whatever organization we’re in, we've heard of it, but we don't really know what it is and we don't really know how to change it.

[00:20:46] And that to me is so unfortunate because emotional intelligence is a learned skill set and anybody can learn it, and over and over again, we hear of how powerful it is. So, the middle chair leader, back to Devon's question, so the middle chair leader essentially has developed [00:21:00] five leadership EQ skills.

[00:21:01] So if most people were to Google emotional intelligence, like it’s so much information, it's overwhelming. They don't know where to start. So, I'd like to boil things down. I like to simplify data. And so, I've identified that there's five core leadership skills under the umbrella of a leader’s emotional intelligence.

[00:21:16] So here they are. And again, I like, based on my visual learning style, it is CARDS. Like acronyms. Acronyms help us remember and chunk information. So, think everybody of the acronym CARDS. And these are the five core skills of great leaders who are sitting in the middle chair. I'll go through all five. And I want everybody just to do their own little assessment on how would you rate yourself zero to 10 on each of these five skills?

[00:21:37] So the first one, C stands for your communication skills. That's your ability to give and receive feedback effectively. It's your ability to be open to receive feedback, which is really important. A stands for your attitude, your attitude of yourself but also your ability to set meaningful goals in your life.

[00:21:55] R stands for your relationship skills. Your ability to put yourself in the shoes of somebody else. This is where [00:22:00] empathy comes in. This is where understanding generational differences, cultural differences, personality differences, all are at play. And so, your ability to really understand that the way we see the world is different than how other people see the world, and really understand those lenses. D stands for your decision-making and your time management skills, your performance skills, your self-discipline skills.

[00:22:20] A lot of people realize that time management is actually part of emotional intelligence. Most people don't know that. But people who are very self-disciplined, they're drawing from their emotional intelligence because they're able to, they've kind of identified, I want to get this done.

[00:22:35] And even though it doesn't feel good in the moment, I'm going to do it anyway. And they can push through things to make deadlines and then they feel great afterwards. So, your D stands for your decision-making, time management, self-discipline. And the S, which is really, really important for all types of organizations.

[00:22:51] Certainly nonprofits. It’s your stress, anxiety and emotion management skills. And this is something we're certainly seeing in organizations as just the [00:23:00] anxiety epidemic with a lot of employees. Certainly, a lot in terms of the younger generation. And really making sure that people know how to, do they understand their emotions, what they need to do to lower their stress, what they need to do to lower their anxiety? Their ability to set boundaries, their ability to say no, all that kind of falls under the S category.

[00:23:19] So those are the five core leadership skills. And then in the book, I go through in more detail, I get people to kind of score it for themselves. And then it's all about learning how to change it. So, this is the, this is the hopeful part of the story that this is not genetic. These are learned skills.

[00:23:34] And so, once we know where we're at, then the book is filled with practical application, includes a workbook, team discussion questions, it's all complimentary, to really help drive change so that people can actually understand where they're at. But here are the steps I need to do to help myself with these five skills we have in the middle chair.

[00:23:49] So, Dr. Karyn, I know that, you've got lots of practical advice in the book. I think communication, that first C of the five leadership EQ skills [00:24:00] is a tough one for people. So, do you have any practical advice for folks that may rate themselves kind of lower on the scale of communication?

[00:24:08] What can they, what are some tips and tricks to improve? It's a great question. And I think you're absolutely right. So, for a, so all five skills are really important and I encourage all level of leader to make sure that they're diving into all five. What's interesting is the C one, the communication one, is the one that really affects teams the most.

[00:24:27] I mean, if I, my own attitude, my own goal setting skills will affect me, but in terms of a dynamic for committee or a team, it's that C part. And so, what are, what's a couple of practical applications? I think the first one is to really, again, I think this is just so helpful to think about people in our life that are sitting in that middle chair and just ask yourself, who is that person and how do they deal with conflict?

[00:24:49] You know, the more that we can attach story to this, I think is really powerful. So, it's an exercise. A lot of times what I'll do when I'm speaking to live audience is, think of great leaders who are sitting in the middle chair in your life right now, who are [00:25:00] they? And I'll get people to actually say their names actually out loud.

[00:25:02] And because if we have that real narrative in our life, it just helps give us a little bit of a script. And so, I think the first thing is realizing it is okay to have conflict. A lot of times, that left chair, that right chair, the mindset is that there's something wrong when there's conflict.

[00:25:19] And that mindset will kind of have a ripple effect. So, I think the first thing is realizing it's healthy, even the healthiest teams, healthiest committees, is going to have conflict. There's nothing wrong with conflict. It's how we respond to the conflict that is actually important. The second piece I would say is, really focus on problem solving, not blaming. And don't put it off, whatever the conflict is.

[00:25:40] There's a tendency just to like park it, hide it, let's not talk about it. And conflicts that are unresolved, they just fuel. They get bigger. That's where the triangles make it totally toxic. So, I think just really having a healthy mindset and then also really focusing on problem solving.

[00:25:58] And then the book gives tons [00:26:00] of examples on practical, like literally scripts on how I'd actually recommend people to, you know, the language, the words to use, the words not to use, to further that dialogue. Dr. Karyn, this is so insightful. I could go on and on and on. And, uh, just already feeling like we want to have you back on the show, but in the limited time we have, maybe you can, considering that many listeners, they are leaders at nonprofit organizations.

[00:26:22] Or they volunteer on investment committees. They bring a lot of treasure, talent, time, and they're really passionate about advancing the mission, but they don't always get it right. And I don't get it right when I'm volunteering, uh, you know, on an investment committee necessarily either or in any capacity in working with the nonprofits.

[00:26:41] So I guess my closing question for you would be, what else would you share with these folks who are caring and want to advance their mission? And using your backdrop, if you will, for input. Great, great finale question. So, what I would say is, and this is really I think a hopeful message as [00:27:00] we, as we wrap up, is that, if all, everybody that's listening to kind of really focus on how can we really develop great leaders that are sitting in the middle chair? And how can we do it in a way that's engaging, inspiring, and also cost-effective, right?

[00:27:12] I mean, and so in the book I talk about these six P’s of engagement. I mentioned them at the beginning. And a lot of the strategies that I talk about actually do not cost any money. They don't cost any money in terms of how do you actually kind of inspire and develop great leaders, and developing the sense in terms of play, uh, developing a sense of, you know, sense of purpose, identifying the purpose, communicating your purpose, thinking about culture, how you’re actually developing culture.

[00:27:37] A lot of the tactics that I share in the book are things that actually don't even cost any money, but it does take intentionality. And I think, so for everybody listening, my encouragement would be that learning how to sit in the middle chair does not cost money. It is completely possible, but it does take effort.

[00:27:53] It does take intentionality. The first thing is that they get the book and they kind of work through it with their team. They'll get tons and tons of ideas. [00:28:00] And I think that's the part that's just so energizing and so inspiring that change can actually happen when we prioritize it. Yeah, you've shared so much with us today.

[00:28:09] And I know I am going to read that book and try to move myself from the left chair to the, just spend at least 80% of my time, hopefully more, in that middle chair. So, if folks want to learn more, buy the book, find out more about DK Leadership, where should they go or how can they do that?

[00:28:28] That's great question. So, two places. If they want to go buy the book, they can actually go right to Amazon. It is called The Three Chairs: How Great Leaders Drive Communication, Performance and Engagement. And, uh, you can, you can see the book there. You can do it as an e-book, hard cover, soft cover.

[00:28:43] Definitely share a review. Hopefully it's a glowing review. Cause those are important. And then if they want to connect with us or myself, or as an organization, you can go to our website, which is a DKleadership.org. And DK stands for Dr. Karyn [00:29:00] leadership.org, o-r-g. In Canada, dot-org is very popular.

[00:29:03] And with my American clients, uh, I understand that dot-org is not so popular. Is that right? That’s true. It’s for the non-profits. Oh, okay. So yeah, there you go. So, in Canada is very popular. So yeah, DKleadership.org. DK stands for Dr. Karyn. And they can learn lots more and there's tons of free resources that we share for organizations and families as well.

[00:29:23] Well, Dr. Karyn, we are so appreciative of your time and your expertise. I know you are a very busy woman. You wear many hats, you've got a very full plate and we're honored that you shared this time with us and congrats on the release of the new book. Awesome. Thank you so much, Devon and Bob. Dr. Karyn, thank you so very much.

[00:29:41] This was absolutely wonderful. And thanks so much to our listeners as well. And as we see increasing volatility in stocks, investment committee members may be taking a closer look at their underlying managers and funds, and they might even be resurfacing the debate of active versus passive investing. If you're curious about your [00:30:00] use of active compared to index investing, I definitely encourage you to check out an updated piece on our website called The Next Chapter in Active versus Passive Debate.

[00:30:11] You'll find it at fiducient.com along with a number of other resources. And we'll definitely add that link as well as all of Dr. Karyn's links to the show notes. So, to all you good stewards, thanks for investing time to help your nonprofits prosper. We'll connect with you soon on the next episode. Thank you for listening to the Nonprofit Investment Stewards podcast.

[00:30:32] Click the subscribe button below to be notified of new episodes and visit Fiducientadvisors.com for more information. The information covered and posted represents the views and opinions of the guest and does not necessarily represent the views or opinions of Fiducient Advisors. Content is made available for informational and educational purposes only and does not represent a specific recommendation. Always seek the advice of qualified professionals familiar with your unique circumstances.

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